>0 anonymous @ 2021/02/03 22:02
I mean don;t get me wrong, We shouldn't divide ourselves by ages, but I get the impression that tilde.club invokes nostalgia for a lot of people who were around for the days of the early web. I'm just a kid who loves weird obscure stuff and I feel pretty out of place here. Am I the only one not some kinda fully established dev or CS specialist?
>1 anonymous @ 2021/02/04 01:59
>>OP quit trying to dox me bro
>2 cano @ 2021/02/04 05:04
I'm 25 years old and a deadbeat going nowhere in life. I have no formal education in anything at all, let alone the tech fields. I've just landed here through a series of events spanning decades resulting from a drive to thrive in my situation one way or another and techy stuff is the path I happened to go down. :)
>3 spider @ 2021/02/04 23:37
I'm 29 but was late to the internet, never experienced bulletin boards etc This is all fun and new to me as well :)
>4 gingertek @ 2021/02/09 21:10
I'll be 27 this year, and while I do work as a software developer, I didn't know much to anything about all this stuff; ssh using keys, keygens, nginx, tildeverse in general, etc. I started out in the Windows world like most people, and then I discovered Linux and the terminal much later on, so I also feel a little late to the party lol
>5 anonymous @ 2021/02/13 08:03
Well at 33 I guess I'm the geezer around here; and even I am "too young" to view
the BBS days with nostalgia (I would have been, what, 2 or 3 at the time?)
However, my adolescence was one where *the* means of communication was basically
AIM ("AOL Instant Messenger") -- a time where cell phones were awkward and
clunky, and texting was expensive (or nonexistent). Drama played out
in the rumor mill of peer-to-peer texts and pre-decided chatrooms, instead
of a Discord or Facebook group or...whatever it is the kids use nowadays.
I'm here because it's open to anyone; but you have to do more than
click a link and create an account; you can't really post images or links;
and although it's slow, it's a place where real conversations can happen.
Or a place where I can read others posts that are sent "into the void".
I'm not sure which yet.
~Voytek
(Sorry I can't be arsed to log in)
>6 tomasino @ 2021/02/15 21:05
>>OP 40 here.
>7 zer0 @ 2021/02/15 23:24
26 here
>8 karx @ 2021/02/16 19:28
>>OP I'm turning 16 in 183 days!
>9 eld @ 2021/02/17 17:29
>>OP I'm 41 and remember BBSs fondly. This feels a little like coming home when you've been away a long time
>10 anonymous @ 2021/03/07 06:54
>>OP I'm 40. My first public unix account was 20 years ago on arbornet. Not a nostalgia thing for me, I believe to have an access to a real unix computer on the net is just immensely useful at times. I was never very active in the user communities.
>11 ben @ 2021/03/07 17:58
26 here
>12 Esso98 @ 2021/03/09 16:15
I'm in my twenties and for some reason I love old things. Specially old computers. May be that's why I ended up here.
>13 blitzkraft @ 2021/03/13 03:39
>>OP I am 32.
>14 jbgoldberg @ 2021/03/16 11:40
I am 47. ;P
>15 derberger @ 2021/03/20 14:33
I'm 45. I'm not a dev or a programmer. I just consider myself a poweruser if thats a thing? I just love everything internet. My first shell account was back in '91 and I used gopher the most and also played a lot of MUDs. I was also on a local BBS as early as 1990. Shells are bring back a lot of nostalgia and I still love to use them to this day. I've also been a user on SDF since 2003 if anyone uses it I'm Venom on there.
>16 meskin @ 2021/03/22 04:52
16 here
>17 bastiaan @ 2021/03/23 19:49
21 years old here, got into learning Linux from the Raspberry Pi and chose a IT field to study in, quite happy with that at the moment.
>18 amok @ 2021/03/24 08:57
I'm 37, and I'm from Argentina. Just trying this.
>19 fastidious @ 2021/03/24 22:47
I am 52, or 53, if I go by Korean age. I believe I might be the oldest one here, and that makes me feel quite old indeed! :-D
>20 cano @ 2021/03/26 12:17
>>19 Congrats! :) You've been around for it all.
>21 jebug29 @ 2021/03/29 03:46
I'm 22, turning 23 in a few months! I work in IT for a school district, but I've been on SDF, tilde, and such since 18 or 19 years old. I've been into computers ever since I was in kindergarten, though, and I've been online plenty long enough for maybe not BBSes to be nostalgiac to me, but things like this definitely to be ;p Not everyone is some master UNIX guru or maddeningly competent dev (although we're thankful for those who are). So don't worry -- as long as you're here and having fun, you belong :>
>22 tym @ 2021/03/29 13:56
>>19[~fastidious] I'm 54, whippersnapper!
>23 fastidious @ 2021/03/29 17:58
>>22 Woah! Finally, I am not the oldest! :-)
>24 eld @ 2021/03/29 20:06
Very pleasantly surprised by all the different ages of people here
>25 wy @ 2021/03/30 14:16
>>OP 19 over here
>26 kalium @ 2021/04/02 09:07
37, officially not old. I'm old enough to remember Geocities and networks of personal websites, not old enough to recall BBSes or Gopher or the like, so it feels like faux-nostalgia, but I like it anyway. I do webdev, not much of a power use for anything more low level, but not fond of really engaging with the modern web. I like the simplicity and the lack of pressure to show off and cultivate a "brand identity" or whatever the phrase is.
>27 erin @ 2021/04/02 23:09
>>OP Hey! I'm somewhere around 15-17 ;3 So I didn't grow up with anything near this sort of technology, but i still find it incredibly fascinating. I enjoy this sort of stuff because it's a nice break from the modern web, and a cool look at history.
>28 jdtron @ 2021/04/11 13:47
26 here. Too young to see this stuff happen by person. But really enjoying it so far. I'm currently trying to swap out big bloaty programs and services for more minimal ones. Learned about BBS from this tilde and loving it so far!
>29 fenris @ 2021/04/25 18:32
I think 56 wins
>30 tomasino @ 2021/05/06 10:14
>>29 We've got some 60+ folks. Looks like they're not bbj people though.
>31 rgu @ 2021/05/08 17:54
>>OP 53. Peace!
>32 anonymous @ 2021/05/12 06:55
>>1 38. I'm a little surprised that we have so many young friends here :)
>33 anon @ 2021/05/13 06:47
Alright OP, we get it. You want to suckle on the sweet, rewarding honey inside this pot. Go ahead, do it. Nobody here is gonna stop you... .....16 years old. Fuck.
>34 anonymous @ 2021/05/19 01:12
>>33 I'm around 20-21. I'm suprised so many older people are here.
>35 ffuentes @ 2021/05/21 04:45
>>34 I'm 33
>36 lovetocode999 @ 2021/06/01 22:58
I just turned 17
>37 anonymous @ 2021/06/03 08:38
>>OP I'm 26 atm and I'm not CS specialist either, just love my terminal and TUI/CLI interfaces in general and all kinds of obsure stuff too.
>38 micklemeal @ 2021/06/07 16:56
>>5 32 years old here and this is exactly my experience. I have memories of early 90s style website (geocities/angelfire/tripod) from browsing as a kid and learning to build web pages, but most of my social life online was through AIM/MySpace as a teenager before getting sucked into the social media machine. This place feels like a breath of fresh air and really hits a sweet spot of things I've read about and wanted to experience but never had the opportunity.
>39 anonymous @ 2021/06/19 05:30
32 here, stay safe everyone!!!
>40 defunct @ 2021/06/19 17:00
38 here, and aging rapidly *lol*
>41 anonymous @ 2021/06/22 03:57
i am somewhere between the ages of 13-16 i feel like im too young to be here reading this thread lol
>42 anonymous @ 2021/06/22 08:24
13 F
>43 Mirage @ 2021/06/24 01:51
I'm 22 and a computer science student. Not here out of nostalgia, though I do enjoy using it on my older computers (like this ThinkPad X31 I'm currently writing on), which I guess is nostalgic in its own way.
>44 cale @ 2021/06/25 03:09
41 here. Some of my first experiences online were through dial-up BBSs and accessing sites like Yahoo around 1994 through text based browsers on those same BBSs. So it's very much a nostalgia factor for me. I'm fascinated by the younger group here. How did you all stumble across something like this?
>45 deckard @ 2021/07/27 19:45
>>44 Well, I stumbled upon it because I went searching for it. Found out about these sort of things via gopherspace actually. I'm 14.
>46 sudoz @ 2021/08/15 23:38
cool!>>44
>47 anonymous @ 2021/08/18 04:54
[deleted]
>48 grawlix @ 2021/08/18 04:59
51 but feels like no time since I was 17 and discovering the wonderful world of Berkeley Unix. Prior to that, I ran a BBS on an 8-bit micro running software I wrote. I don't think of myself as a programmer or developer. It's something I do when there is a use for it. My 'profession' is informatics-adjacent (aspiring systems, web, or metadata librarian). I too am interested in hearing from anyone younger what made this seem like a fun idea!
>49 skye @ 2021/10/11 17:17
>>OP (I'm from tilde.team so sorry if this thread isn't for me) I am 16 but close to 17. I obviously don't remember BBS or even anything like it but I have always been attracted to communities like this--text based, sl- ow, and small--because social media gives me mental illness.
>50 grawlix @ 2021/10/12 20:30
>>49 It gives all of us mental illness whether we realize it or not.
>51 satchlj @ 2021/10/15 17:20
i am 17 no nostalgia here for me its all new and fun and yes i know this thread is dead lmao
>52 jacksonbenete @ 2021/10/15 23:14
>>51 Don't worry, there's no thing as dead thread in BBJ. >>1 I'm entering my 30s. I'll go 30yo on January.
>53 isvarahparamahkrsnah @ 2021/10/16 09:31
Almost 30. 'Bout to become a wizard. lol
>54 anonymous @ 2021/11/13 12:25
>>OP i just turned 17 but I've been shitposting on fozztexx for well over a year
>55 rocked_socks @ 2021/11/23 15:15
>>OP A highschool sophmore here.
>56 cruftpunk @ 2021/11/27 18:00
49 here! got my start on BITNET in college approximately a hundred and ten years ago. I do work in tech, but I basically do so as a direct result of being online when "being online" was entirely terminal-based. very glad to be here!
>57 noodlez @ 2021/11/29 18:08
>>OP I'm 20 right now, but I'll be turning 21 in about a week. I think it was nostalgia that caused me to join tilde.club, but more nostalgia for what I missed out on, which I have pretty often (I like using older computers and stuff for this exact reason).
>58 ayko @ 2021/12/02 18:51
i am 14 :)
>59 voidskull @ 2021/12/30 18:59
>>8 A 17 here, would be 18 in around 120 days. Never used terminal before 2021 !!
>60 blakesmith @ 2022/01/01 08:12
18 here, I have an obsession with minimalism and terminals. I hate bloaty websites and thus joined tilde.team. I also like writing and publishing fiction.
>61 anthk @ 2022/01/17 21:25
>>26 34 here. On BBS' and Gopher's, I'm with you, buuut some magazines gave the readers some "encapsulated" BBS' in early 00's to be readable offline. Also, I mostly played retro games in the 00's emulated in my computer (my only previous console was a Game Boy), so I played the same games the 80's guys/girls did. And, well, as I had Debian plus libre retro/console games installed, my late 90's/early 00's weren't so distant from the 80's. When I wasn't toying with TCL/TK, icewm, fvwm and terminal envs, I was lurking out with the teletext and some zvbi (teletext library), so I can say my teen years were not so "current".
>62 anthk @ 2022/01/17 21:28
>>60 You would love Frotz and Anchorhead, them. Those are text games a la Zork but more modern. Frotz is the interpreter, you'll have more z machine games at gopher://gopher.661.org, heaad to the IF archive and then to games/zcode. Spider and Web is good, too. It's a backtracking thriller. There are more to play, these games mix narrative and puzzless brilliantly.
>63 cherryblossom @ 2022/01/20 08:00
>>OP I'm 17. I'm surprised there's a decent number of teenagers here, which makes me feel a lot less out of place. I always assumed I would be the youngest on here and everyone else would be in their late 20s at least. It's great how so many people from such a wide age range can come together in this community!
>64 blakesmith @ 2022/01/20 14:04
>>62 thanks for the recomendations, i like playing if games from time to time, altho i was mostly limited to twine games that ran in the browser. i also started writing my own twine if but ended up abandoning it. i also like reading visual novels (some excellent ones like fate/stay night) which i think is very similar to if. overall i really like if especially well written ones, but i never found one that hooked me into the story. i will try out the ones you recommended
>65 athenion @ 2022/02/24 12:59
16 here! Just a bit of a nerd for a knack for old and personal cosy spaces lol
>66 gritty @ 2022/03/10 14:43
40. I, like a few I've seen in here, remember the days of dial-up and Geocities. I almost remember the address too which was somewhere in Hollywood/Lot. I also played a lot of dial-up Quake 2 and Unreal Tournament, and also went to LAN parties at my friends' houses where we lugged huge towers and CRT monitors into our parents' cars to play into the small hours of the morning. Despite all this, I never did get into the Gopher, BBS, UNIX world - I was on Napster, IRC, and learning to do basic coding and setting up Linux boxes instead. I imagine I would have if any of my friends were on there too, but they didn't know about them either. Similar to others here, I've really been delving into the small web because the big web has evolved into something I really don't enjoy much anymore. I've dropped all mainstream social media accounts years ago, and glad to have found this space.
>67 la @ 2022/03/16 16:23
>>36 im 16 and glad to see so many different ages of people here :)
>68 grizzly @ 2022/03/18 23:09
>>OP I'm 31yr old, I'm react and nodejs developer from Germany
>69 thecomputergeek @ 2022/03/23 04:12
18 and lovin' the old-school ways.
>70 tilda @ 2022/03/25 08:29
I'm 20. Quite a lot of people my age and younger around here.. I think its great how wide the age range is! We're just one big diverse community
>71 nex8192 @ 2022/04/09 22:10
>>OP I'm 21 :)
>72 erase @ 2022/04/10 17:34
>>OP I'm 20
>73 soda @ 2022/05/03 18:08
>>OP I'm 22. Loved the idea of programming since I was a kid and was aallwaayss on the computer. I just recently discovered the wonderful world of tiny internet communities. :)
>74 soda @ 2022/05/03 18:10
>>66 Me too. The big web is a mess and, for me, only useful for entertainment (youtube) and business. Social media is not fun. :) I much prefer getting to know individuals in a smaller, friendlier context.
>75 danignat @ 2022/05/11 07:44
I'm 51. I grew up with text-only interfaces, so I love them :) By the way, I started programming punching cards, if someone remember those times ;)
>76 brib @ 2022/05/11 16:14
>>75 Never experienced a punching card myself but my parents have told me stories about using them... They sound pretty cool except for the "need to wait a day and find out you have a compile error!"
>77 duck @ 2022/05/11 22:02
I'm 18. It's so cool to see such a wide range of ages here!
>78 danignat @ 2022/05/13 08:20
>>76 Well, beside the waiting time, there were a lot of other funny things, like "accidentaly drop the box with cards", and many others :) At first, we had some punching machines like typewritters; when I typed a letter, it immediately got punched on the card, so no room for mistakes. Later, we got some machines with a buffer of a couple of lines, so we could correct mistakes before sending the card to be punched. Sweet times :)
>79 stern @ 2022/05/14 22:23
>>OP 22 here
>80 brib @ 2022/05/15 08:39
>>78 Oooh, that's pretty cool! And seems way harder than nowadays where we have all those on-the-fly "this tells you what's wrong and lets you correct it in under a minute" tools.... As for ages I'm 25 :P
>81 danignat @ 2022/05/23 09:23
Well, I was bored and I calculate the average age of people who wrote here :) More than 60 people wrote their age (maybe I missed a couple or so :) ); some of them didn't give their names, some specified an age interval or a value which wasn't very precise. I also added 1 year to those who posted last year, until the month of May. So, the average is about 29 years old, with a minimum of 13 and a maximum of 57 (56 last year, so I assumed he is 57 this year...) There are 20 people who are 20 or younger and 6 people who are 50 or older. There are at least 4 people older than me :)
>82 brib @ 2022/05/23 21:14
>>81 Average.... is that mean, median, or mode? :P I would expect a tilde site to cater for nostalgia, but I grew up with the "fun" of social media (and I expect those younger than me to have done the same).... perhaps being here is a nostalgia to a time some of us cannot remember? A romanticisation of 90s internet? Idk.
>83 danignat @ 2022/05/24 06:08
>>82 I think it is mean... Sorry, my English isn't very good :) Maybe at the same level with my Statistics skills :D I don't know if it's nostalgia, but I also don't think we're heading in a good direction regarding all the social media stuff. I see people manipulated by social media, people who believe anything it is written there, people wasting a lot of time using it... Creativity disappears, also I see a lost of focus; the phone is continuously beeping and if it is not beeping, it is checked every two minutes or so to see why it is not beeping. But don't take me seriously; I'm just an old guy babbling about "good old times". The fact is everything back then was better because we were a lot younger :)
>84 crdpa @ 2022/05/25 13:08
Hello. I'm 35, soon to be 36.
>85 anonymous @ 2022/05/29 21:37
17 here o/
>86 grizzly @ 2022/05/30 08:38
>>OP I'm 31 yr old.
>87 m1k3 @ 2022/06/21 01:25
38 here
>88 barlow @ 2022/06/22 15:11
I'm 28.
>89 exxxxkc @ 2022/07/06 11:59
i am 15.
>90 freshpots @ 2022/07/10 06:05
40 here.
>91 marikar @ 2023/07/13 07:34
I am closer to 50 than 40. First experienced the internet through dial-up, when you had to wait an hour to download a 10MB file.
>92 ultrachip @ 2023/07/13 11:39
>>OP I'm in my mid 30's. I'm technically slightly too young to be directly nostalgic for the BBS golden age but I sort of caught the tail end of it.
>93 dean @ 2023/07/18 16:17
Im 14!
>94 jazei @ 2023/07/19 17:34
55 ~56 y.o. in next sept. staring with win 98 to win 7 now with linux crashed but linux.>>OP
>95 userfxnet @ 2023/07/20 23:26
>>OP IDK if i'm in the middle range of w.e age demographic exists here, but i'm 28. I barely got into pubnix the other year, but I've been aware of BBS services since I've been a teen learning about the history of the internet, network computing, and analog/digital computers in general since I was a child. (don't get me wrong tho, I'm not that technologically proficient lmfao smfh)
>96 anonymous @ 2023/07/21 07:49
25 here. Learned about the concept of pubnixes a few days ago and am fascinated with the idea of a community of people using and sharing the resources of a single computer to host a website. I know some of you may wag your finger at me and say "well, this is the way things used to be done, kiddo", but it's such a fascinating way to organize a community to me.
>97 ultrachip @ 2023/07/28 22:43
>>96 Welcome to the community! I hope you've been enjoying it.
>98 yourpalpyro @ 2023/07/31 11:33
13, most likely the youngest one here. turning 14 in 3 months
>99 andif @ 2023/08/02 07:16
We missed an opportunity here to calculate the mean as we go :) new_mean = (old_mean * (new_n - 1) + new_value) / new_n, where new_mean is... the new mean age, old_mean the previous one, new_value is the new age we're joining on, and new_n is how many ages we have in total, including the new one. Person 1: age 25 (n = 1) This gets the thing started: the mean is 25. Person 2: age 50 (n = 2) The new mean is (25 * 1 + 50) / 2 = 37.5 Person 3: age 30 (n = 3) The new mean is (37.5 * 2 + 30) / 3 = 35 Person 4: age 20 (n = 4) The new mean is (35 * 3 + 20) / 4 = 31.25 Check it's working so far: (25 + 50 + 30 + 20) / 4 = 31.25 My age is in the interval [35,44] btw :)
>100 anonymous @ 2023/08/04 04:23
23 here! That brings the mean down to 29.6
>101 anonymous @ 2023/08/04 14:35
I'm 55, so that brings the average up to...oh, you kids figure it out.
>102 andif @ 2023/08/04 19:32
>>100 Oops should have mentioned that I made up those numbers. Sorry :( :)
>103 nagi @ 2023/08/07 18:48
22 here !
>104 leach @ 2023/08/08 03:37
>>OP I'm in my mid 20s, I'm paranoid for opsec so that's all you're getting from me lol
>105 xeno @ 2023/09/05 06:17
At this point I'll just say that my first program was entered using punch cards.
>106 neoroll @ 2023/09/05 07:10
Somewhere between 9-14 years...
>107 bayang @ 2023/09/05 07:36
42 here
>108 fenris @ 2023/09/07 21:44
>>107 Cool age. 42 is an answer, too.
>109 bayang @ 2023/09/08 09:47
>>108 Exactly, it is *THE* answer actually ^^
>110 anonymous @ 2023/09/08 20:28
I watched the first moon landing live. Also remember the day JFK was shot.
>111 anonymous @ 2023/09/09 02:54
>>OP I turned 30 this year. My first computer where I had consistent access to the internet was in the early 2000s in the time of MySpace, so it's not nostalgia for me. I just...like it. I enjoy working in the terminal and prefer to do anything I can there, including coming here to this board.
>112 ceayo @ 2023/09/25 18:37
14
>113 anonymous @ 2023/10/06 23:42
36 here & first time on a community host. ~Goup.
>114 abaxial @ 2023/11/27 02:50
43 here. Am pretty amazed at the spread in ages actually. Great to see folks from all generations into technology a little bit removed from the fast currents of corporate social media.
>115 gasconheart @ 2023/11/27 22:50
Nice thread. I've read most of it. I am 49yo, born in 1974. To me this is partly actual nostalgia and partly also faux-nostalgia. I had a ZX Spectrum in the 80s, but never really used the internet untill the mid- to late 90s, with a Windows 3.1 PC. I was contemporary to the BBSs but never had any contact with that ambit. I am a tech aficionado, I am a linguist by my formal training. Actually I enjoy imitating the ways of hackers, like using the terminal, non popular desktop operating systems like Linux, or occasionally otheers, or using vim plus markup languages to replace the visually bloated MS Word or LibreOffice counterparts.
>116 anthk @ 2024/01/18 16:33
>>115 You can always learn common lisp with sbcl: It has an English parsing chapter. https://gigamonkeys.com/book/ Then, after finishing that, do this one: https://archive.org/details/practical-common-lisp_seibel I can help you to set sbcl+rlwrap (to add history/edition to the sbcl prompt in no time). Here you don't code+compile+run, here you add code and change functions on the fly. If some part of a function doesn't exists, you can add it later. With the second book you can literally write a chatbot and a math equation solving software. All the code can be fetched from free from the giganews' site or from https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp for PAIP.
>117 solitonmedic @ 2024/01/23 18:49
It kinda warms my heart that kids and young adults are learning all about the old web, its like it never left!
>118 percent20 @ 2024/01/31 02:23
>>117 agreed! i was born in the last millenia in a way that makes me a "millenial". as a kid, my dad used a HAM radio apparatus called a PAC-COMM to connect to bulletin boards hosted by various colleges around the northeastern US. it was like this. at least it felt like this. once the gui came though we all (at the household) abandoned terminal connections and rode the slowly loading jpegs all the way to today. i'm excited to _interact_ in the terminal again, all these years later. mostly, i'm solo, admining (word?) various headless or remote linux machines when i'm using bash/sh/fish/whatever. cheers!
>119 mpisco @ 2024/01/31 14:59
>>OP OP I'm a tilde.club member, and I'm 15. For your information, I'm using tilde.club because I wanna see "what the web felt like" back then.
>120 subtra3t @ 2024/02/07 14:30
>>119 Huh. I'm another 15 year old tilde.club member. I don't come here very often but I do find something interesting every now and then.
>121 ebruce613 @ 2024/04/08 06:18
>>OP I'm here from tilde.team and I'm 14. I'm also around on ctrl-c.club and blinkenshell, I came here for the community. I have never used social media in my life and hopefully never will, But I am active on a few irc channels, and the Haiku forum.
>122 mjdxp @ 2024/04/18 21:05
I'm currently in my early 20's. Mostly here because I have a fascination with old tech.
>123 swinton @ 2024/04/25 09:27
I'm in my mid-50s so definitely one of the older nerds it seems. My first computer system was an Atari 400 with 4k of memory which I bought along with a Atari 410 tape casette drive and a black and white television to use as a monitor that had an arcing problem and would regularly emit "pop" noises. After working another summer with my dad I bought an MPC300c modem which connected via the joystick port and started logging into, and eventually running, bulletin board systems after hours when the household was asleep. Since then I've been a close tracker of the computer industry, the BBS and intfic scenes, and the industry in general. I've been variously a network administrator, IT manager, software engineer, technical producer, distributed systems engineer, etc... you name it. It's been a wild ride with lots of ups and downs along the way. To all the young peeps seeking to escape the dark forest of the dystopia that is the modern internet I applaud you. Stay weird and avoid the mainstream. Learn you some everything for great good and read voraciously, especially the works that have endured over the millenia. There's often good reason it survived all those years! :) Swinton