Not exactly an editor wars, but... by jacksonbenete | tildeverse BBJ

>0 jacksonbenete @ 2020/10/23 03:16

What do you preffer, Vi(m) or Emacs?
What's your favorites packages/modes?

I'm using Emacs with God mode. Vanilla, then went fully custom.
I like very much Deft for taking notes (Org is too much for me I think),
Pdf-tools is incredible, no more adobe or foxit for me!
Dashboard is interesting.
And more recently Magit and God mode, I should be using those two 
incredible packages since the beginning!

I'm not versed in Vim but I'm interested in both.

If you're using something else you're also Welcome!

Nowadays I still log on Windows to use Scrivener, but I would like to 
don't need to. Maybe someday.

>1 blitzkraft @ 2020/10/24 02:17

>>OP

I like vim. However, this is exactly how editor wars start.

>2 jacksonbenete @ 2020/10/24 04:39

>>1

I can't blame you. You're right.
I'm more interested in learn about new packages and what people like to use.
And if there is something cool in Vim that it's not on Emacs I want to see it
myself or try to port it. And that's something I can only achieve asking
people about.
But you're right, if something goes wrong the mods will just delete it I
think, because there is no way to delete it myself as far as I'm seeing.

I believe though that as a small community it's very hard for people to fight.
Because there is just no reason for it.

>3 blitzkraft @ 2020/10/25 02:59

>>2

I doubt this will get removed or garner furious arguments either. There is #flamewars on the irc. So, let's have some live dumpster fires going on over there!

>4 mieum @ 2020/10/25 14:16

>>OP

I use vim, but I like the idea of emacs. I've been trying to
find reasons to use emacs---for things like browsing gemini and
gopher, for example---but I'm so accustomed to vim! It's not
just the keybindings, but more so  the way it works and the way
it is configured.

I have experimented with other text editors, and there are lots
of cool ones out there. I really liked Amp, and also Micro seemed
neat as well. Kakoune seems like it would be a fun way to
collaboratively write things on a tilde :)

>5 murteza @ 2020/10/29 10:31

nano is where it is at. It gets the job done without having to read a manual or use StackOverflow to get answers :D

>6 alex11 @ 2020/10/31 22:51

It's different paradigms, vim is meant as a modal text editor where you can do a lot but emacs is a whole lisp environment with more advanced ways of editing text

>7 tomasino @ 2020/11/01 18:15

>>OP

I'm a vim or neovim user. Full respects given to anyone who has put in the
effort to pimp their editor the way they want it, though. If you're interested
in trying out different editors, we have quite a few installed on Cosmic
Voyage. Here's the current list:

dav
e3
ecce
ed
edlin
efte
elvis
emacs
fte
jed
jmacs
joe
jpico
jstar
kakoune
lpe
mg
micro
moe
mp-5
nano
ne
neovim
nvi
rjoe
rmate
sam
se
te
the
tilde
vim
vis
wordgrinder
zile

>8 mieum @ 2020/11/13 13:40

>>7

Wow, that is an impressive collection of editors, tomasino! I bet the Smithsonian doesn't even come close to CV ;)

>9 bkersh @ 2020/11/13 23:03

I use vi/vim. When I was first starting out I used nano because it was n00b friendly. Once I started working on RHEL servers as a job, I quickly learned vi. It's everywhere and now when I use a standard text editor my hands feel broken because I'm used to the modal style! I even write some short stories in vi/vim because I just like working from the terminal. Probably not what a sane person would do.

>10 Julian Marcos @ 2020/12/03 05:09

>>OP
I use vim and emacs ( emacs on evil mode ( doom emacs ) ) 
For remote servers I like more vim ( Because normaly is by default vi but I install vim and isnt a pain to add my [dotfiles](https://nxnt.link/dot) )
For writing or org agenda I use emacs ( Because is more easy it is from emacs )
For code on my local machine I use emacs ( I have syntax higtliting )
I have neovim or nvim configs ( with syntax higtliting and plugins ) but is a pain to setup on remote servers ( So if i need more than 1 config to pass i use vim ( Because my vim config is one line )

And this is exactly how editor wars start

>11 guy @ 2020/12/12 21:49

Yeah, it's definitely all down to preference and what you're trying to accomplish. To each their own.

Personally, I started using vi/vim when I switched to Linux like a decade ago. Learning 'dd' in vimtutor is what sold me on learning it. Now, even if I have to use a different editor/IDE, I need some sort of vim mode/plugin in order to use it.

I would say I try to keep my vimrc minimal, but that's not really true lol. I try to keep it from getting *too* complex and unwieldy but I've become dependent on Conquer of Completion for (certain) code editing.

>12 mieum @ 2020/12/14 13:54

>>OP

I recently tried giving Emacs a go again, but I can never seem to really stay dedicated to using it long enough to really get comfortable with it.
I don't think it's the key bindings or anything like that. It's more just that it's this whole other animal, and taming and befriending that animal requires time and effort. I think unless I force myself to go vim-less for a period then I won't really get the full Emacs experience, because I just automatically hop into vim for everything.
I always say this, but I feel like there are lots of things I could be using Emacs for (that vim doesn't do), but unless I'm living in Emacs, then I don't have a lot of motivation to be using those utilities. Maybe I should challenge myself to exclusively use one of those distros that boots into the Emacs window manager for a week :)

>13 kmeow @ 2020/12/21 19:27

>>12

emacs is my editor/IDE of choice, though like a lot of other emacs
users, I still do use vim for quick edits to configuration files and
whatnot.

There's a mythology around emacs similar to the one around the LISP
programming language for which pedigree and history have the blame;
newcomers often have the vague impression that emacs, like LISP, has
some kind of transcendental functionality. The man-to-emacs link can
grow surprisingly strong and rewards investment, but there's nothing
magical about it.

If you're able to use emacs comfortably and know about its great
extensibility (and all the extensions it already comes with), but
still feel like you just aren't getting something, it's because
there's nothing more *to* get.

>14 fenris @ 2020/12/25 19:53

If you edit your ~/.emacs with vi, I think you choosed your weapon.
And vice versa, of course.

>15 kby @ 2020/12/26 19:59

I like both Emacs and Vim. I use them both actively.
For C and LISP Emacs is just the best. Emacs is more than just a text editor: Beyond Paredit and Geiser I use
Typit, org-mode, org-drill, apl-mode, rainbow-mode and mpc-mode a lot. That'a music player, typing tutor,
diary and flashcard program in one tasty LISPy package. AuCTeX is also great. It's very modular and one doesn't have
to learn many new hotkeys to be able to use it properly.
Vim on the other hand, Vim is the text editor supreme - for a quick edit it can't get any faster than Vim,
I always use Vim to edit my configuration files. But I wouldn't like to edit source code with Vim when I have Emacs.
Of course, I can install plugins for Vim to make editing code easier, but I don't want to use Vim as an IDE.
It's a lightweight legacy-free text editor and it's supposed to remain that way: what's the point of using Vim
if you're going to load 100 plugins to make it "a complete IDE"?

I also tried vile once or twice. Wasn't bad, but I think it has some shortcomings (no `:w !sudo tee %` or TRAMP)
zile and mg are pretty good, but they have no UTF-8 support. Uh, no thanks :^)

>16 drwasabi @ 2020/12/28 16:03

Guess I'm more of a vim/neovim person.  Have learning emacs on my bucket list.  In the light of day I spend a lot of time in VS Code, which I've setup to work with vim keymaps.

I did have some fun a few months back when I sub'd at our local high school for a friends Intro to CompSci class.  When they noticed me fly around in vim
and they didn't even know basic text editing, I changed plans and tought them how to do the basics in vim.  A few of them are still using vim now.

Thats my 2 cents
Dr. WaSaBi - A.K.A. Russ

>17 ramin @ 2020/12/29 15:35

I used a combination of Vim and GNU Screen professionally for about 10 years, and got to be really good at Bash shell scripting.

After I realized there was really no integration between Vim, Screen, and Bash, I decided to switch to Emacs, because in Emacs, the shell, terminal emulator, and editor all work together pretty well. You also get other apps integrated within Emacs: Email with mu4e or Gnus, Git with Magit, note taking with Org Mode, manual pages, IRC, all of it works together using Emacs buffers as the medium of communication between apps. And it is all programmable and customizable in a proper Lisp-family programming lanugage, unlike all these other tools where you might need a combination of Lua, Python, Bash, TOML, YAML, and who-knows-what other customization languages are out there.

>18 jacksonbenete @ 2021/06/14 16:56

>>17

That's nice, this is exactly what I was looking for, to know more about how 
other people are using the editors and other tools. :)

I wasn't familiar with Screen, I just installed it and it's awesome!
I had to change the C-a binding to C-j though, because I use C-a a lot to jump
to the beginning of the line.

Emacs is really great, Magit is just awesome, eshell is powerful but I don't
know how to make much magic with it as of yet.

Although I use Emacs a lot, I can't always be there all the time.
For Webdev I still use Visual Studio Code, and I used to do fast editings 
with vi.

I'm now using ed a lot, I don't know why but I feel a lot productive with it.
I still keep my Emacs though, it's hard to give up Magit and for Lisp 
Emacs still rocks!

Although I admire who use a single tool for everything (like Emacs or Vim only)
I guess I'm just ok with using a specific text editor for a specif task,
just like I still have to use VSCode for a better JavaScript and HTML support.

I like to use ed for both programming and general editing, I don't miss 
syntax highlight or code completion, but I wouldn't use it if I had to work
with a language with a lot of boilerplate or verbosity such as Java, 
those are cases where you do need code completion.

>19 fenris @ 2021/06/26 18:07

I use vim since 25 years because it's fast, clean and available on any
unix system, at least as vi. It's a live keeper if you have to administrate 
several unixes.

>20 rmgr @ 2021/06/28 10:39

I currently use Vim but lately I'm being seduced by the Emacs dark side. I like the extensibility of it

>21 grawlix @ 2021/08/18 05:20

I was raised on a vi/nroff workflow. I still use vim when I'm remoting, and 
neovim if it's available. On my own machine, I use Emacs. I'd probably use it 
on the server here too, but I don't want to be greedy. ;) It's just as easy 
to log into the box with ansi-term and still have the comforts of Emacs, 
anyway.

While they're still distinct from each other, Emacs has acquired a lot of 
vi-ness, in the form of Evil or Viper modes, and vi has acquired a lot of 
Emacs-ness, in being able to load plugins and run scripts. You can even kinda 
do org-mode stuff with Vim these days. VS Code and others have vi and Emacs 
input methods. Emacs and vi are both undergoing something of a renewal 
thanks to projects like Neovim, Elisp native code compilation, and more. 
It's great, though sometimes overwhelming, to have so much choice.

>22 julian @ 2021/08/30 07:43

>>10
hi Julian from the past.
I no longer use emacs and i dislike it, i only use vim and nxnt.link is no longer up, so dotfiles are on: 
https://tildegit.org/julian/dot

>23 jacksonbenete @ 2021/09/06 17:53

>>21
This is nice, I'm trying to learn more about roff (and troff, nroff, groff
and all the roff ecosystem) but it's still a bit of a mystery to me, and
sometimes a bit cryptic to understand the man pages and how to use it.

>>22
Why did you stopped using Emacs? And why do you hate it now? haha

I'm also no longer use Emacs but I don't hate it.
That's just because I'm trying to use as much builtin/native aplications
as possible because I'm getting old and sick of copying dot files and
(re)doing configurations. And I used to rely on various modes for Emacs,
including some I've wrote myself, but it's just much work for me, and that's
actually why I don't want to use Vim nor Neovim, because I know it will demand
some configuration and dotfiles as well.

Now I'm on macOS for the first time, so I'm relying on builtin apps.
I'm using less(1) and ed(1) for do my editings most of time, sometimes I open
mg(1) or vi(1), but I also got used to make some fast editings/appending
with cat(1).
Sometimes I might open XCode or VS Code, so I don't really am a person
nowadays that want to use only one tool for everything like I used to try
when I was using Emacs, I will just use the tool I think will be comfortable
and best to the job.

It might sound crazy that I'm using ed(1) but I'm very comfortable using it
for various reasons, one of the most important reasons is that I don't like
autocompleting and popus getting into my way, and I'm trying to slowdown,
so I preffer to edit and code slowly using ed(1) than doing thing as fast
as possible with IDEs and autocompleting.

I just want to turn on my machine and use what is available without having
to lose any time installing and configuring software. I'm old and tired. :P

>24 grawlix @ 2021/09/07 00:00

>>23

nroff has been mostly supplanted by LaTeX these days, I guess.

but it can work in a low resource environment and is probably simpler, 
all in all.

>25 jacksonbenete @ 2021/09/08 01:40

>>24

Yeah, the troff.org website is not updated in a while, I've heard that
the project (kind of) died mostly cause the author passed away, but...

I've searched a bit and found some people on stackoverflow saying they
still use *roff in some ocasions, and that "The Go Programming Language"
book by Donovan and Kernighan (2016) was edited using groff.
There is a post about it and a discussion on hackernews.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11470905

I'm sure TeX rule over troff in popularity, I've used LaTeX for some years
on the academic environment and it's really verbose and annoying sometimes.
But I guess that's the problem with *roff (I've heard) is that it's not easy
to work with equations and unicode, so I guess that unless this is somehow addressed
TeX will never have much competition.

There are some recent (2020) videos on YouTube about *roff, I'll take some
time to watch then so I can learn something.

>26 jdtron @ 2021/09/29 16:47

I always liked the concept of vim.
Everything I wanted to do seemed like a few keystrokes away.
Coming from vscode (as the most of typing I do is programming), this was a bit of a learning curve, but a big boost in speed for me.

Using vim for a while (not knowing how to properly configure it) I missed a lot of features like modern IDEs provide.
As said, at this point I just did'nt know how to configure vim or use plugins.

So I learned about Emacs and especially DOOM Emacs and quickly got hooked.
Pretty easy to use and configure. And thanks to evil mode with all the nice vim keybindings.
I used DOOM Emacs for quite a while. I used it for almost everything as there is a plugin for almost everything.
So it got slow. And more slower over time. In usage and in updating.

So I gave vim a second chance and started learning how to **properly** use it.
Set up all the stuff I really need and started using other programs for other tasks.

Today I have this blazing fast IDE like editor with all the features I need. Never got happier!
Never want to go back!

>27 grawlix @ 2021/10/02 10:02

>>26
I'm often tempted to go back to vi/vim/neovim, too.  Only reason I
haven't yet is addiction to some of the software built on 
Emacs; elpher, magit, org, markdown-mode.  The vi* editors are 
faster, even with a lot of plugins, and I'm comfortable with 
the shell/vi workflow.

>28 chickfilla @ 2021/10/07 22:46

I personally use vim, mainly because I find it to be the easiest to learn of the two. And to be fair, I'm probably going to come off as a bit of a normie here but I rarely code directly from the terminal anymore, I've become very spoiled with vscode. But even then, whenever I have to edit files or change some lines on a project when I get a build error, I find that vim is jsut the right convination of easy to use and feature complete enough.

>29 grawlix @ 2021/10/08 10:24

>>28

VS Code is really impressive and good for making things happen. 
I just have decades more vi* and Emacs under my belt, so it's 
easier for me to stick with them.

>30 chickfilla @ 2021/10/10 16:51

>>29
Oh and I totally get it. Back when I first started "coding" I bacame very accustomed with the edit command on windows, just because it was easier to use it for writing bash scripts. Now that I'm staring to try OpenBSD out I'm very interested in getting to know vim and/or emacs a little more however.

>31 grawlix @ 2021/10/12 20:44

>>30
It never hurts to know some vi*. It's ubiquitous, fast, and powerful. 
Emacs is more about the fact that most of Emacs is in elisp, which has 
given rise to a lot of configurability and extensibility. The downside is 
that Emacs pretty much demands to be extensively configured, hacked, 
and supplemented in order to become useful. I might never have got into it 
if I didn't end up doing niche stuff where ediff and the various 'occur' 
derivatives ended up being pretty useful. I use elpher and eww quite a bit. 
Haven't quite given over to the "put everything in Emacs" lifestyle yet, 
but there is a certain draw to it. Recently, I started to try out the 
'MOVEC' stuff (Marginalia, Orderless, Vertico, Embark, Consult) for 
completion, contextual actions and so on, and I'm finding it adds a lot of 
value to Emacs. Marginalia, Vertico and Consult are in the default 
package repositories now. Hopefully Embark and Orderless will make the leap 
soon.

>32 jacksonbenete @ 2021/10/12 21:06

>>31

I'm trying to get used to vi/vim but it's difficult to
get used to hjkl to me.
I wish I could ^a, ^e, ^p, ^n, ^f, ^b... I think vi doesn't uses Ctrl in
editing mode, I wish I could be able to fast mov
during editing mode without having to hit ESC and change mode.

I'm so used to "readline", which people calls "Emacs-mode" but really
that's "Shell mode" should we say? I think that readline movement was
around before Emacs.
If we (I) could use both, fast movements with ctrl keybindings during
editing mode, plus the power of hjkl in command mode, then I would
adopt vi.

I imagine that it might be possible to edit keybindings to enable
this, but I still didn't learned vi-hacking (or in vim), so I'm
still not sure.

I'm using Emacs less and less although I miss Magit.
But I still couldn't get used to reach ESC in the other side of the
keyboard universe just to change mode.

I would accept any tips about getting around this, I'm quite busy
right now but I'll soon explore the vi tutorial further.

>33 stern @ 2021/10/13 01:39

>>32
alt-x is the same as hitting esc-x if you are looking for something easier to type

>34 chickfilla @ 2021/10/13 20:50

>>31
I suppose those are extensions for emacs right? I'll be honest, I know that emacs (and vim also) are crazy configurable, but I haven't done much research on that front. Let's say I were to spend another day making my current i3 setup look nice with yet another text editor, do you have a guide that's worth checking out for anyone who would like to get into Emacs?

>35 fenris @ 2021/10/17 18:34

Vi is for editing files
Emacs is for writing codes

>36 ayko @ 2021/12/02 18:58

idk vim is good but i still cant get confortable with it.Emacs, i didnt use it
much.

>37 exxxxkc @ 2022/07/07 22:00

my first editor is mousepad , now i am using neovim

>38 savoy @ 2022/09/06 23:28

I haven't seen any mention of it, but I'd recommend trying out `helix` if
anyone wants.

I'm a die-hard (neo)vim user and have a great comfy config for my uses without
dozens upon dozens or hundred+ plugins some could boast about, and I've been
testing out helix for about 3 weeks now.

The only plugins I'm really missing are the ones I use for CSVs and for ledger
files, and the only functionality whose absence is glaring is the (current)
lack of soft-wrap; it makes editing non-code text files so much nicer. But
other than that I've really gotten comfortable with its `selection -> action`
model, while reversed from vim, makes a lot of sense once you get used to
it. Also a bonus that LSP setup requires nearly no work; it works great in my
neovim setup, but it definitely took some searching/tweaking to get it to work
vs the truly built-in way it's integrated in helix.

>39 faefeyfa @ 2022/09/11 16:40

>>32
>I still couldn't get used to reach ESC on the other side of the keyboard universe just to change mode
I think a common way to do this is to map caps lock to esc (on the keyboard layout, not in vim) since caps lock is basically useless anyway. 

>>38
helix looks really interesting! I'll give it a go.


Typically I use neovim (with a small-ish (15?) number of plugins, and while I've tried spacemacs it's just felt quite frustrating since I can't seem to get it to cooperate...

Maybe not really a text editor, but for note-takeing I've started to use Obsidian (with vim-mode!) -- it has a couple of neat features, like whatever it's doing with links and stuff, and it has LaTeX rendering (though typically I prefer actual LaTeX if I need to take notes on math).

>40 Myrkvi @ 2022/10/07 18:42

>>OP

I really like Emacs, but it's still a bit overwhelming to me, though I do use
Org mode every now and then. I do also really like modal editing, but find
Vim's pattern (i.e. action then motion) not really to my liking, and would
prefer something like Kakoune or Helix instead.

>41 x88 @ 2022/10/07 23:37

>>OP
I like vim, it's simple enough for me, and I don't use it for crazy stuff.